Signs of Intelligence: Letter to Editor Gives Smackdown to American Theocrats
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YouHaveBO.com: The Internet's Premier Anonymous BO Notification ServiceHere's one historian's take on the Founding Fathers' views on the separation of church and state. And this guy can cite sources.
Posted by amused Achilles
on Nov. 24, 2003 14:24 UTC
61 comments
from readers. Join the discussion!
As a reader of and contributor to morons.org and as the producer and host of a GLBT radio show, I like to think I follow the church-and-state debate pretty closely. This is a brilliantly written defense of keeping religion out of U.S. government, and I have nothing substantive to add to it. I'm just looking forward to the conversation that it sparks. Enjoy.
--Brian
Posted by Ariadne on Nov. 24, 2003 14:39An excellent response, except that Carver doesn't know his Jefferson quite as well as he thinks. Jefferson actually did say "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ," in a letter discussing his personal religion (I don't have the Portable Enlightenment Reader on hand, so I'm afraid I can't cite the actual letter). Taken in context, however, the quote still expresses Jefferson's Deism. I find it interesting that Jefferson asked the recipient of the letter not to share its contents with anyone else--he didn't want his religion to become a political matter. Quite the opposite of most modern politicians.
spatula: That doesn't seem to jive with this real TJ quote: "I have examined all the...Ariadne: The quotes do make sense together, read in context; again, I left my book at...Just Nick: Haven't read the article yet, but I saw these quotes and just had to comment. ...RhodeIslandRed: I didn't have time to read everything that's been posted, and I don't have to...Robguy: I don't think of Jesus as divinity, I just think of him as an influential...Just Nick: Literally, a Christian simply means "like Christ." If we could just go back to...Robguy: I think both Jesus and Paul had profound effects on the Jewish religion. I just...Just Nick: I understand.ObbleGobble: >Literally, a Christian simply means "like Christ." If we could just go back...DoctorMelkor: You're correct that the issue of Jesus' divinity is not dependant upon Robguy's...Robguy: If I'm interpretting the religious bend of the conversation, then I am also a...HeadHunter: A person can be a disciple of Nietzsche; that does not make this person...Ariadne: Exactly. Read properly, the quote would have supported Carver's editorial. He...AngelsAreGay: He dismissed the lack of source citing, which has still not been done.Ariadne: I'll be happy to find it if you don't mind waiting until Sunday or Monday.St Matthew: It's nearly 4:30 MST. Feel free to post any time now.St Matthew: Do you mean the Monday after Thanksgiving? It is Tuesday now, after all?Just Nick: He's probably got big family Thanksgiving plans. Cut him some slack.Ariadne: SHE is at her parents' house for the week on break. The letter is in a textbook...Just Nick: Sorry, I had wondered if you were a girl, but someone referred to you as a...Lois Carmen De Nominator: Great article. On the subject of Jeffersons personal beliefs there is this: "I...Lois Carmen De Nominator: The article we are commenting on is an editorial reply to a previous article...BluJayLax: We were the most free colony. All the other colonies were restricted to a...Just Nick: Who is the exception?BluJayLax: Charles Carroll of Carrollton - cousin of John Carroll, Archbishop of...psychojosh13: no, if i remember my history correctly, rhode island was nonreligious from the...free thinker: Yes, Rhode Island was the first place anywhere to allow complete freedom of...BluJayLax: Hey, my family came over on the Ark and the Dove, you know what that means...
Posted by Liberty Guy from East Coast, USA on Nov. 24, 2003 17:46"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man..." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
T. Jefferson ----- To S. Kercheval, 1810
But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State: that the purest system of morals ever before preached to man has been adulterated and sophisticated by artificial constructions, into a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves: that rational men, not being able to swallow their impious heresies, in order to force them down their throats, they raise the hue and cry of infidelity, while themselves are the greatest obstacles to the advancement of the real doctrines of Jesus, and do, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Liberty Guy: Sheesh, I posted a reply before reading the article. My bad. All my quotes are...Lois Carmen De Nominator: So I noticed, good quotes though. Don't beat yourself up over it I almost did...
Posted by Lankiveil from Queensland on Nov. 24, 2003 19:45Odd that a conservative news outlet would publish such a well-thought out letter.
Not that I'm complaining, mind you.
BluJayLax: Maybe this outlet is like this site, open minded when the facts are presented...Jraxis: "Conservatives" used to be the people to strictly believe in the Constitution,...
Posted by Klem on Nov. 24, 2003 21:13Anyone ever see this...good stories for morons.org in here
Adult Christianity http://www.jesus21.com/
Reynard: You might also check out Miss Poppy Dixon's site -- All the Jesus that money...Pansy Bedwetter: A bunch of the stuff on this site seems to be nothing more than guilt by...splorp!: No, it just tends to be the loudest and most offensive Christians who get media...satan: No, it just tends to be the loudest and most offensive Muslims who get media...splorp!: I agree. The bad Muslims do get more media exposure. However. I have seen more...G-Do: Nice tit-for-tat. It's not that easy. For starters, no sane Christian likes...Just Nick: That sounds about right. It may not even be because that portrayal of...Just Nick: OOPS! "I would be remiss if I tried to lead people into thinking that...Pansy Bedwetter: "Clegy [sic] get the education and are paid to think for the laity. There are...Just Nick: Good point. Americans often leave everything up to the "experts." [sarcasm]...BluJayLax: "So people like Falwell and Robertson are dismissed as the church's "crazy...ObbleGobble: I understand now where you are all getting your highly astute information an...BluJayLax: Miss Poppy's site might be garbage. The problem is every week or so news comes...BluJayLax: Sorry, I missed a "not" in there... Some people do not like Christians or...
Posted by Pansy Bedwetter on Nov. 25, 2003 03:38What I love about this site is the banner link to "The Facts of Life" site, which chides "the Democrats' intent to obstruct eminently qualified Bush [judicial] nominees". If memory serves me right, the government is supposed to run on a system of checks and balances, and those senators that don't agree with the president's opinion about what makes a nominee "eminently qualified" SHOULD vote against that prospective appointee.
Peter: Ah yes, but also remember that anything that stops what I disapprove of is...
Posted by Just Nick from Nashville, TN on Nov. 25, 2003 09:07This article is EXCELLENT! I'm forwarding a link to my friends and family whether they believe in separation of church and state or not (hopefully, I won't lose any friends over this). The e-mail begins with a statement of my agreement with the article, hopefully whetting their curiousity (since the e-mail's subject is "The US is Not a Christian Nation").
Other things regarding the article...
"So there is no such critter as a right for Christians to use the government to promote their religious beliefs, no matter how hard supporters try to disguise their actions under the declaration of tradition and history."
I'd add... So there is no such critter as a right for atheists (or the like) to use the government to promote their anti-religious beliefs, no matter how hard supporters try to disguise their actions under the declarations of freedom and tolerance.
I've said it several times... "'Freedom of religion' is neither freedom for one religion nor is it freedom from all religion."
And just so there's no confusion, you are free to keep yourself from religion; you aren't, however, free to prohibit the freedom of others.
SteelLynx: So when was the last time you heard an atheist politician say that he didn't...Just Nick: I'm not talking about atheist politicians (there are several, if you're an...Tim: Intelligent Christians ARE evolutionists.Just Nick: Another debate. Another time.
Posted by free thinker from New England on Nov. 25, 2003 10:00"The Puritans ... left England for Holland so their children would not be exposed to what they saw as a false belief system. Holland was even worse for them so they set sail for the newly established colonies in America."
So puritans went to the Netherlands and 400 years later it becomes the first country to legalize gay marriage, then they went to Massachusetts, which may soon become to the first U. S. state to do so.
Apparently wherever the puritans go, four hundred or so years later there's some kind of delayed reaction of liberalism. Kind of bodes well for twenty-fifth century Alabama, doesn't it?
Just Nick: That probably happens as a result of eventual rebellion against such strict...
Posted by spatula from the morons.org lair on Nov. 25, 2003 10:58
Which show do you host, Brian? Is there any way for us to listen online?
Posted by historitext on Dec. 01, 2003 23:09There are a few minor errors in the article in question; e.g., George Washington was the presiding officer of the Constitutional Convention; Jefferson did consider the moral philosophy of Jesus to be superior to that of the non-Christian ancient writers (ltr to John Adams, cf. Cappon); Jefferson admired Unitarianism but never claimed to subscribe to the faith. It is important to emphasize that to admire a teacher'sphilosophy is not to consider him divine. there are a few other minor mistakes, but overall the article is absolutely correct. A further comment: Those who quote members of the first congress re freedom of religion should note, as Justice Suiter did in his dissent in Rothenberger (sic) v. UVA, that this is the same Congress which ratified the First Amendment "and" passed the Alien and Sedition Acts which cwere in explicit violation of it. It is for this reason that Jefferson's "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom" and Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance" and "Detached Memoranda" are and have been used as the basis for Supreme Court interpretation of the Establishment and free Exercise clauses.
