Nicklas Johnson · morons.org - Doctor Who Gay Controversy (spoilers)

Editorial: Doctor Who Gay Controversy (spoilers)

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Overheard in SF: Heard inbetween the rabbit squeezing and the carrot munching

A line of dialogue in the latest episode of Doctor Who has stirred up controversy among fans...
Posted by spatula on Apr. 19, 2005 10:47 UTC
30 comments from readers. Join the discussion!

About 5 minutes and 25 seconds into Aliens of London, we were presented with this exchange between the Doctor and Rose atop an apartment building in London:

Rose: she slapped you!
Doctor: 900 years of time and space and I've never been slapped by someone's mother.
Rose: your face...
Doctor: It hurt!!
Rose: You're so gay!

Now mind you, Doctor Who has a massive gay fan base and the writer and executive producer Russell T Davies is himself gay. So it's hard to believe that Russell intended this remark as some sort of affront to gays.

Yet on mailing lists and the popular Outpost Gallifrey Forum debate rages among fans over the last line of this exchange. Some are offended that Rose would use the word "gay" as an insult or to suggest that the Doctor was weak. Others see the use of the phrase as colloquial and meaningless. One poster wrote, '"You're gay" or "You're so gay" is so common in today's school-playgrounds, that it didn't even register as odd to me.' Another said, 'It seemed wrong to me that the show should be, however much a throwaway remark, endorsing the use of the word 'gay' as an insult or derogatory comment...I don't care if it is common these days, which it sadly is. It shouldn't be. And yes, I *know* who wrote the damn episode, but that doesn't excuse it.'

In an email response to an aquaintance, writer Russell T Davies explains, "The simple answer is: that's how people talk. And although that's simple, it's very powerful. I can't imagine a proper drama which is couched in terms of how people *should* talk...Second, the word is changing. This is an irreversible process beyond anyone's control. It seems to me that we're becoming people who complain about the use of the word gay, much as people *used* to complain about the word gay, because it no longer meant 'happy'. No words stay static."

Davies went on to explain that by introducing controversy, he's gotten people to talk about the phrase and its usage and an insult, though some fans found this explanation unconvincing.

Whether he intended it or not, Davies has indeed gotten people talking. What do you think? Is "that's so gay" or "you're so gay" meant to be a remark denigrating to homosexuals? What about Rose saying it to the Doctor during a family drama? Share your thoughts below.

---Nick

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Posted by freefall on Apr. 19, 2005 11:03

using the word in that conotext never offended me....i say it myself sometimes

Posted by Vulgar V from the Corner of Indiana on Apr. 19, 2005 12:22

Just from seeing it in this context, my guess is it's more in the sense of "You act stereotypically gay so often."

Maybe it's just me.

Vulgar V, in nomine Homeris, et Bartis, et Spiritu Lisii.

Robguy: well, they are British....

Posted by kelemvor from UK on Apr. 19, 2005 12:25

For the love of Rassilon!
Why the hell can't these whining little wastes of sperm just be pleased that the show is back on the air?
Rose is a product of her time. If it matters so much to them, they can get out there and start actually workling to change society.
*Flounces off for a relaxing mint tea*

Posted by Doozer from Fair Oaks, CA on Apr. 19, 2005 12:36

What do you think? Is "that's so gay" or "you're so gay" meant to be a remark denigrating to homosexuals?

I don't think there's any question. Of course it is, albeit indirectly. It's a comparison used as an insult. Gay == bad.

Posted by Pansy Bedwetter on Apr. 19, 2005 12:57

I'm gay and I use that term myself, in that context. It's funny. PC junk trying not to be offensive to anyone causes more problems than it's worth. It's how you treat homosexual people that matter.

Posted by Kenster999 on Apr. 19, 2005 13:19

Coincidentally, on two recent episodes of Malcom in the Middle, Reese has used "gay" in this way. For example, in last week's episode he said something like, "Dad, I know it's totally gay to talk about feelings, but..." (and then proceeded to talk about his feelings).

Yes, it's Reese, but still. I guess I find it surprising because MITM has been very gay-friendly over the years.

Posted by Oktoberain from WV, USA on Apr. 19, 2005 14:59

I guess I'm in small company, and that's fine. I personally think that using the word "gay" in that context just perpetuates the gay=bad mental association that's so prevalent in our society.

I don't feel "offended", and I'm not upset by the lack of "political correctness". I just don't like people using my sexual orientation as a generalized insult.

Imagine if the phrase were "You are so AFRO!" instead of "gay". People would be screaming racism from the rooftops. Networks would be issuing sincere apologies. But "gay"? Barely a blip. Even in the heart of the gay community, there are those who would shrug their shoulders and say "Well it's just a word. They didn't mean it *that* way."

But the truth is, no matter how the writers *meant* it, it was obviously *meant* as an insult within the context of the show. And that is absolutely unacceptable. Just because the show has a gay writer and a big chunk of gay fans doesn't mean the comment is harmless. Remember Finkelstein, the Republican strategist who helped Jesse Helms win election after election? He recently married his gay partner in New England. Looking at his example, it becomes rather obvious that there are plenty of gay people who feel no loyalty to their brethren whatsoever, and whose wallets are far more important to them than silly things like civil rights and equality.

Perhaps this viewpoint will me branded as "too sensitive", or "too politically correct". Fine! I'd rather be ridiculed as "too sensitive" than to tacitly approve of something like this. It might seem like a small thing, but small things have a tendency to turn into large things given enough time and apathy on our part.

Posted by Aeryl from Lou a vul, KY on Apr. 19, 2005 16:10

To me, as a straight white person, this debate seems similiar to the debate played out over the use of nigger among black youths.

Now, I have heard all the arguements from my gay friends about why the phrase is deragatory, and I cannot fault their logic. But, on the outside looking in, the more common the phrase is used, the less insulting it will be. I use the term, usually jokingly with my gay friends. Commonality decreases the word's insult. Plus, I think the context the word is used in is important. For example:

Black Youth: Whassup, my nigga?

White Redneck: Them niggers takin' our jobs!!

I think it is obvious which is the bad context here. In the context used in the Dr Who dialogue above, it is somewhat insulting, implying that gays are weak and unable to endure pain(please:). Whereas, when my friend Pat starts giving me illustrative descriptions of his planned redecorations, or talks about his daytime shows, and I remark, "You're so gay." We both laugh out loud.

Aeryl: Also, why is there a high gay fan base for Dr Who? or Wonder Woman? And good...

Robguy: I think gay men love Wonder Woman because we really like the idea of...

Reynard: Okay, this seems like as good a thread as any to bring up a question that I've...

Robguy: Well that was a different generation than me... but I think the whole Wizard of...

splorp!: I thought it was because her outfit was FABULOUS! splorp! Evil Bastard

Robguy: well those ruby red slippers certainly were absolutely fabulous!

splorp!: I was talking about Wonder Woman. splorp! Evil Bastard

Posted by kemosabe on Apr. 19, 2005 16:17

I can see why some people would take offense to the phrase; I try to never use it for that reason. But I also think that the British (and Europeans in general) are less politically correct than Americans, watch Monty Pythons Flying Circus sometime and you'll see lots of political incorrectness.

It certainly won't stop me from watching Dr. Who and other British shows, they're too damm funny not to watch.

Posted by Irish Bastard on Apr. 19, 2005 16:24

I think it was part of an exchange between two characters in the context of a television show. I rather have people say things that may be offensive if it adds realism to the characters then to have then only say 'correct' words.

That was so minor, I had to go back and replace the AVI file to hear it because I can't remember hearing it the first time.

Some people just watch stuff to be offended.

Posted by SsamrolkenN on Apr. 19, 2005 17:12

I think Davies' explanation is plenty sufficient. It's how people talk.

Gay means gay, but it also can mean someone who shares some supposed trait with gay people, such as femininity.

We seem to be working from the premise that fictional shows have a responsibility or obligation to depict things the way they should be. Where has it been established that this is what shows *must* do?

Robguy: StarTrek

Posted by tolerant bastard on Apr. 19, 2005 18:24

he's been stuck in a phone box with billie piper and didn't shag her
the tardis has been completely redecorated
he wears leather all the time
he loves being the center of attention
and he's always grinning

she wasn't being insulting, just descriptive!

spatula: And I've heard that glass sphere from The End of the World he puts down on the...

Posted by Pansy Bedwetter on Apr. 19, 2005 20:08

I usually use straight the same way most people use gay, so I can't really complain.

Posted by Paranatural from Denham Springs, LA on Apr. 19, 2005 21:09

I don't really see it as degrading to gay people.

Most of my friends are Bisexual, and I have many lesbian and homosexual male friends. We will all say stuff like 'That's so gay.' to mean something that's lame or sucks. It doesn't mean that I hate gay people or anything, like he said, it's just the way language is these days.

Posted by Spishak from Jigoku on Apr. 19, 2005 21:34

Just a matter of opinion, but I find the phrase dumb, akin to a playground insult. Usually I'll just reply "That's so straight..." and they'll get the message.

Posted by Kitsune from Its Heated Den With a T1 on Apr. 20, 2005 24:47

It just seems overused, I perfer to be on the bleeding edge of insullts, myself. Lacks creativity.

Posted by peter from Chicago on Apr. 20, 2005 06:36

Yes, it's offensive. Not big time, but yes, it is. And while it might not be "intended to be," it is certainly used knowing that it will be --again, just as it is in real life.

It's right up there with "That's mighty white of you" as a thank you -- knowingly insulting to a group of people, and completely unnecessary.

Yes, it is how people talk. Couldn't agree more. But unless his characters are going to calmly use "Jesus Christ!" as an exclamation, and casually use "fuck" and "shit" and similar words in conversation, which are also things that are how people talk, then the explanation doesn't hold any water. Those aren't used on TV not because people don't talk that way, but because they are offensive.

In this context, "lame" would have worked just fine.

Offended? Not really. But this just goes to prove once again that the same standards of how to treat "real" people simply don't apply to gay people.

I would feel a hell of a lot differently if we had the same rights as everyone else before they started using "gay" as an all-purpose insult.

Or, quite honestly, if Dr. Who had ever paid the slightest dues in establishing rounded, whole, human (or not!) positive gay characters into its Universe. If the only recognition that they are going to give gay people is to put us down, well, fuck 'em.

Posted by Mr. Vanos from Huntsville, AL on Apr. 20, 2005 07:39

Although you show the transcript of what took place, it doesn't really relate the emotion, which I think is an important piece of the context of the scene. I think given context it was meant as a sort of playful jab, not as an insult.

It's one thing for a friend of mine to tell me laughingly "don't be so dense" versus someone I don't even know saying the same thing as an insult.

peter: What does that have to do with it? At least the idea of being dense relates in...

Everly Dawn: If someone said "You're so gay" to me after I did something stereotypically...